My parents raised me to always say “yes sir” and “no ma’am”, and I automatically say it to service workers and just about anyone with whom I’m not close that I interact with. I noticed recently that I had misgendered a cashier when saying something like “no thank you, ma’am” based on their appearing AFAB, but on a future visit to the store they had added their pronouns (they) to their name tag. I would feel bad if their interaction with me was something they will remember when feeling down. This particular person has a fairly androgynous haircut/look and wears a store uniform, so there’s no gender clue there.
I am thinking I need to just stop saying “sir” and “ma’am” altogether, but I like the politeness and I don’t know how I would replace it in a gender-neutral way. Is there anything better than just dropping it entirely?
For background I’m a millennial and more than happy to use people’s correct pronouns if I know them!
I’ll often just go for a “thank you kindly!”. It has the same flow.
That IS pretty good…
Yes please and no thank you
I do that too, of course, but “sir” and “ma’am” are a bit more formally polite by showing deference.
Stop showing deference. No gods, no masters!
[preface: I got mad respect for you for wanting to find a solution here that works for everyone. Top-shelf stuff right there. The following is adding detail and not to berate you and I want to make sure that’s out there.]
People really don’t mind either way. The bar is on the floor with how conservatives are acting these days so simply respecting their pronouns will let them feel so much more human.
There are two kinds of respect I’ve experienced: the first is simply treating others kindly, fairly, and with patience and consideration. The second “formal politeness” is more often demanded than earned and it’s always based on stuff like “I’m older than you” because they don’t have anything else going for them. That deference is meant to make anyone who doesn’t treat them as special out to be “impolite” so they don’t need to back-up their decisions.
Most decent people don’t want the second kind of respect. I know for me it makes me feel icky thinking that someone has muted themselves because they’re afraid of making me angry. Mind you I don’t think poorly of anyone who says it, ever, because they’re just doing what they were taught and trying to be polite.
Most decent people don’t want the second kind of respect. I know for me it makes me feel icky thinking that someone has muted themselves because they’re afraid of making me angry. Mind you I don’t think poorly of anyone who says it, ever, because they’re just doing what they were taught and trying to be polite.
Strong agree. I do not want to be shown deference if I’m not in an explicit position of authority and I do now want to shown respect if I haven’t earned it. (I also resent being asked to show deference or respect when it isn’t merited.) General politeness, like please and thank you, goes a long way toward demonstrating that you respect the person as an equal, which feels much more respectful to me than imposing some kind of arbitrary implied hierarchy of unearned respect between strangers.
And it’s always demanded in completely unrelated ways, too. When you can’t be right or at least explain yourself, be a lil’ bitch.
“They’re older so you have to suck up.”
- When ya got nothing left but the passage of time and a society that generally tries to keep you from dying…
“I’ve been doing this thing longer so I’m better.”
- Only perfect practice makes perfect. You can suck at a thing for a real long time.
“They have more money so they’re smarter.”
- We don’t have time for all the ways that’s false.
I think just go the Invader Zim route and infer honorifics by height.
“Yes, my tallest” and “forgive me, my tallest” should cover you in most yes/no situations.
And if they’re not taller than you? Well then they’re less intelligent, so you can turn up your nose in scorn and look over heads until they go away.
I learned a lot of about social interaction from that show.
Funny, but problematic. I know it’s a joke.
I like the idea to use unexpected cumpliment, as “my connoisseur”, “my most esteemed”, “my commander”, “my captain”, “my sibling”, “my comrade”, “boss”, “friend”, or something.
Pointing at physical characteristics? Not as amazing.
Come to brasil where people are called champion, master, professor, doctor, or warrior.
Saying thanks to the cashier? “Thanks, doctor”
Edit: But Portuguese is gendered so I guess this doesn’t avoid the original problem… except in English it would
Commander, captain, uncle, brother, comrade, Chief, big friend Bring us down another round
Pointing at physical characteristics? Not as amazing.
Worse? Or better?
If they are short do you use “Short <king/queen/sovereign>” instead?
No, you call them “shorty” and make wild claims about it being their birthday
I’d say change as you like, but an accidental misgender is not an offensive action, unto itself. As in, we should hope to not do it, but done accidentally is not malice.
Again, we can hope to do a whole lot better than just-above-malice, but you shouldn’t feel guilt.
Just drop the pronouns. Super easy, doesn’t change based on who your are speaking to, and just saying Thanks or Thank You is 1000x better than your average retail customer.
It would be nice if we could get a consensus gender neutral formal honorific. But it’s pulling teeth to get everyone on board with polite respect in using gender neutral pronouns at all. People be trippin.
Formal honorifics are important. They’re about giving verbal respect until familiarity builds enough to bypass the barrier of the unknown.
Yeah, the origins of honorifics were bound into classist malarkey, but they haven’t stayed there. Once we got to the point where folks were ma’aming and sirring everyone, it became something useful. A way of navigating the complex layers of social interaction, and generating a gradual path from stranger to friend.
Sir and ma’am are equalizers when used broadly. They set everyone respected individual by default. I would love a third, or even more, term/terms to be added to that for our neighbors that don’t fit the binary.
Good honorifics are the foundation of maintaining good behavior towards everyone
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Sidestepping cultural appropriation, I would go with “sama” for the timebeing. It is a Japanese honorific. They did theirs right, most of their common honorifics are genderless. Hell, the really common ones can be used to refer to literally anything to show respect.
https://www.fluentu.com/blog/japanese/japanese-honorifics/#toc_5
Comrade.
I could do that!
I’m from NZ so my go to is “mate” but having lived in the UK and Ireland for nearly ten years, holy crap do they have you covered with many fantastic options…
Darling - this is what old ladies at my local supermarket checkout prefer in East London. Dear - similar to above it is probably supposed to be said to someone younger than you Love - pronounced “Luv” is all England I think Boss - (or Bossman - but not relevant here) is a widespread London one. Duck - Often used in the Midlands, particularly around Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire. Pet - the North East, such as in Newcastle. My lover - the South West, particularly in Bristol and surrounding areas. Gaffer - maybe Irish?
The more obviously gendered ones are actually extensive too like Hen, Babs, Babes, Son, Chick, Flower, Laddie, Lassie, Bonnie, Doll.
Honourable mention for Twat - when you don’t want to be polite.
People who grew up here will have even more. To them I say, have I passed the Home Office “Life in the UK” test now?
Nothing like going into a rough pub in Sheffield, and having the landlord ask, “what’ll it be love?”
All of these, maybe with the exception of duck and gaffer, if said in North America would be either not seen as gender neutral, or would be especially creepy if a man used it.
That’s cos yous are professional offence-takers 😂
Cos yer ma didn’t pay you enough attention as bairns
Or they just have different connotations here. Would it be acceptable for a man to go up to a woman he’s never met before and say “I’m in love with you” while she’s just doing her job? If you say yes, I have to wonder who of us was really raised wrong.
On what fucking planet would a sane bloke ever do that?!?
Oh, wait, you don’t have accessible mental healthcare for most people. As you were 😂
Man unable to comprehend that words can have different meanings in different countries, and is unable to understand analogy, more at 11
Don’t worry about it.
When someone corrects you, refer to them as they’ve asked you to and if they haven’t or weren’t clear, ask them how they’d like to be called.
E: In my experience it speaks more powerfully when you can be wrong, apologize and correct the mistake with understanding and grace than when you just drill the agender language till its rote.
No one identifies as chief or boss.
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I feel this way too. I know nearly who calls me ma’am is intending to be courteous and I don’t hold it against them. That said, knowing they are well intended doesn’t make me less uncomfortable.
Also the idea of sir being the term of respect for all men and even boys but ma’am being for “older” women adds some baked in unavoidable sexism, no matters how genuinely-not-actually-sexiest the speaker is. There are just necessary built in assumptions about the addressee when you have to choose between ma’am and miss (or similar). The implication is that societal value of women, and not men, is age-determined. The former often makes a woman feel undesirably old and the latter often makes her feel infantalized. It’s the same as the Mr./Mrs./Miss situation, where moving just to Mr. and Ms. alleviates that tension a bit. No clear answer for sir and ma’am honorifics though.
ma’am being for “older” women
Where I grew up, that’s not the case. Ma’am or madam is for any adult woman, and often for kids you are treating like adults.
I know it’s different on the East Coast, but I still feel silly calling a grown woman “miss”.
I don’t know where you grew up, but this sounds like “southern hospitality.” I’m a gen-x New Englander, and it always creeped me out because I suspected it originated from slavery, and it seems I was right: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_hospitality
Sir and ma’am are so far divorced from any of that as to be absurd.
Nor is polite formality a purely southern thing at all. People up north used to teach their kids to sir and ma’am their teachers too.
I recently said “thanks mate” to a blatant MtF person that works for the same organisation as I do. I probably very visibly shit a brick and thought “not your best choice of words”. If it’s obvious, I will use gendered words, if someone has pronouns or something to make it obvious how they want to be referred to, I’ll use them. If it’s not obvious, and they have nothing to indicate how they want to be referred to, I’ll just be polite.
Mistakes happen, be polite and apologise and I reckon you’ll be fine.
I always look “mate” to be totally gender neutral.
Unbelievable.
Believe it, sister!
Sister?! Have you learned nothing?!
(Lol sorry it was too perfect.)
???
So you’ve gone an entire lifetime saying these things with no problem, and then one day you encounter someone who’s decided to request “they them” pronouns, and youre going to drop this entire habit?
Did this person signal to you that you’d hurt them somehow? It sounds like they corrected an error on your part. Unless they displayed some anger or hurt, perhaps it’s just that you used the same pronouns everyone else does by virtue of how they present themselves, and then they corrected you, and you can use their pronouns from here on out.
I don’t think you should model this as a situation where you hurt someone. You used wrong info, got corrected, and you can move on.
Don’t start misgendering 99% of the people you meet just because one person corrected your assumption once. Don’t do that. Your cultural upbringing is not garbage to be discarded so easily.
Dude is trying to be more considerate in his life and your response is basically “don’t” lmao wild
