The main thing I’m learning from this thread is that a surprising number of people don’t shut their machines down when they’re done using them. Which is wild to me.
A lot of modern windows laptop don’t let you shut them down.
They use something called Windows Hybrid Sleep and it should be illegal. Selecting shut down in windows will keep the machine in a state where it will turn on at random times to check for updates. Especially fun whrn in your backpack creating a furnace.
Thankfully it can be disabled via AD policy.
Or just disable the Fast Startup option
Shouldn’t have to use fucking group policy just to stop your machine updating at inopportune times. Fucking Windows.
It’s always funny to me when people call Linux complicated and in the next sentence say shit like that
As if doing registry edits and group policy stuff is acceptable for basic features and settings
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Ah yeah I forgot about hybrid sleep as I turned if off years ago and forgot it existed. Such a nonsense feature.
Ah yes, the greek hydra of IT. Disable one policy, two more shall take it’s place.
I remember you have to press either Shift or Alt for the shutdown button to actually shut down the PC.
You dont need to use group policy.
Admin console: powercfg.exe /hibernate off
Now its off. Hybrid sleep is just a faster Hibernate.
Or just turn off fast Startup in the power settings.
I meant that you can thankfully disable it with group policy so that the 3000 laptops I manage at work don’t all cook in backpacks every day.
is that not on by default for every windows installation?
Why would you? Sleep uses so little power and the resume is instant.
If it wasn’t for S0 standby being such a piece of shit I’d never shutdown my computer unless it was for an update or hardware maintenance.
I mean since the advent of SSDs I’ve not found the boot times of computers to be all that slow and I typically quite like coming back to a clean desktop on a new day rather than having junk from yesterday being thrown at me.
Even if the boot time is fast, you lose a lot of the program states. Not only it takes extra time to load those applications, it’s also a fair amount of effort to put everything back where it should be.
If it was necessary to shut computers down, no problem, it’s not too much time and effort. But there’s normally no need to shut computers down, it’s just wasted time with no benefits (usually).
yeah if ur working on something you should sleep the computer, but if you’re working with, like, one app, or if youre not working on anything, i see no reason not to shutdown ur pc
Even if it’s only one app, what is the purpose? To save on electricity that powers RAM?
Make it quiet so I can go to sleep
But a sleeping computer is just as quiet as a shut down computer… Which is totally silent. I don’t get it.
sure? i could bring the same argument back to you:
why wouldn’t you shut it down? so that you can wait a couple of seconds less?
there’s basically no difference. it only depends on what you’re used to doing and maybe if you care about the little electricity that’s being used constantly for little to no reason
But you can’t bring the same argument back to me. Cold booting requires more time and effort. Thus to make that argument, one needs to provide the benefits that compensate for the downsides. Some people provided possible benefits that matter to their specific case, like, PSU makes noise (actually, that was you in a different thread), or they want to save laptop battery, etc. But if we are taking about a modern stationary computer with mains power, there’s practically no benefit to shutting it down, only downsides.
Of course it’s completely valid for somebody to do it out of habit, but they can’t expect to use that as a valid argument for others to do it.
Well yes why not save that battery power
I was mostly talking about stationary computers, but even in case of a laptop (unless it runs Windows which has terrible sleep management) the benefits of starting your work immediately once you open the lid outweighs the cons of losing a couple percent of battery overnight.
For me the only thing I needed to “put back where it should be” was my VPN. Bu I switched to wireguard from Eddie, so now I don’t need to adjust anything on startup
See I want all the junk from yesterday.
Just like the brain computers need off-time to calm their electrons and unflip their bits.
/s but a lot of issues really are solved by a reboot
Because a laptop waking from sleep while in a bag is a fire hazard.
If S0 standby wasn’t so shit, or we could go back to old reliable S1-3 that wouldn’t be an issue.
Have you seen how fast computers turn on these days (from complete shutdowns)? It’s 2-3 seconds (if hibernation is completely off). Barely an inconvenience - specially not one worth risking the pc turning on by itself on random times.
The only reason why my uptime is only a month is because I took my PC with me on a work trip which involved packing it.
When I got my first (and only) PC, it was outright SUGGESTED to never power it down. By HP. So yeah I just sleep my computer, and yes I have to deal with the bullshit in the meme lol
Always wondered why the fuck my PC is awake before I even touch it.
Back in the day we did that because it too long to boot so we never shut it down.
20 years later we have servers at home that we never shut down.
As someone who knows how to manage the power and update settings in Windows to prevent this from happening, I am learning that Linux users may not understand how to actually configure Windows to their liking. Which is wild to me.
Sign in states for tokens expire when you power cycle. If you’re in IT or moving between classes, not only would you have to wait for power down and power on each stop you make,you’d also need to sign into every tool you use that requires credentials. I work as a field tech for an MSP. If I had to shut down at the end of each stop and boot back up then I’d have to spend 20-30 minutes signing back into my RMM, ticket system, azure portal, knowledge base etc on top of the site specific stuff I’m already going to have to sign into for that stop. Sleep great. Just disable S0 sleep.
That’s ass. Your bosses should be moving away from that shitty software
Shitty software? The software is great. It sucks that we live in a world that needs MFA to be secure. I also don’t think any software exists in the IT space that doesn’t require some sign in. Every RMM on the planet is going to require secure sign on and so will every knowledge base software. You also need to sign in to access things like domain DNS. Most of my job is locked behind half a dozen sign ins. That’s how it goes for MSPs anything else would be unsecure.
me too. i see no reason not to shut it down, unless boot time takes way too long (you dont have an ssd), you use windows (always takes too long), or you have a bunch of apps open and don’t want to lose the workflow.
though i just have to shutdown anyway because my pc is right under a couple of roof leaks and it might rain while i’m sleeping or not at home
honest question, because i use windows and i shut down every day. is 20 seconds really “too long” for a full boot up?
I think a lot of people are still stuck in the HDD days where windows could take 15-20 mins for a cold boot.
But I only sleep windows because I like to get game updates while I sleep.
Look, I used to work with computers that would take 5 minutes to turn on. I’m done waiting for computers to boot, I want it to take the least time it can. If hibernation takes just 1 second off, I’m gonna use it.
no, i was joking about the windows part there
i’d say too long is 1 minute or more
No point. Sleep works great and live updates are flawless.
To be fair I don’t always use it like that but suspend is convenient if I have a continuous work that is scattered all around.
what i’d day is “always turn off your computer when you’re done using it”, meaning you sleep it when you have work you don’t want to lose.
My Windows 10 computer eerily waking itself from sleep got me in the habit of shutting it down completely every night. I’d be lying in bed, turn over and open my eyes, and see the light of the screen reflecting off the wall. It was like something out of a shitty horror movie about computers taking over the world.
To this fucking day, even in Windows 11, it takes “Update and Shut Down” as a mere fucking suggestion. About half the time, it’ll restart after the update and just sit there chilling at the login screen. Not a single fuck given.
Linux is a breath of fresh air by comparison. Though, if you choose to run Arch you need to stay on top of updates or else a day will come where you won’t be able to update because you’re now too far behind. It can be fixed manually, but it’s still annoying and a little scary if you’re not familiar with it.
Imagine your oven or clothes iron turning itself on while you’re not home. Why TF people just accept their computers doing this is beyond me. Either it’s a boiling frog situation, or people simply don’t remember the times us users had complete control over our devices and think things were always this way.
As an 80s/90s kid, I can tell you they most definitely were not.
I hate windows doing windows things but that’s an oxymoron take because computers aren’t known to cause fires, if there was an apparent danger around leaving PCs on unattended, then there would’ve been legal repercussion. This is just a mere annoyance to most.
Windows has no idea of the state of the hardware it’s running on. Someone could be using a janky molex to sata power adapter, which are known to catch fire and only uses it when someone is present. Or a cheap-ass wish.com power supply with exploding capacitors.
Electricity isn’t free, and neither is it’s impact on your computer hardware. The life expectancy of a circuit may reasonably be approximated as a function of watt-hours. this is why hardware manufactuers test their circuits in ovens: the heat simulates high wattage.
it doesn’t matter if the power drain is low. So long as your computer is on, it’s lifetime watt-hours are constantly ticking down.
Sleep disruption is a serious health issue
The software is arrogant and needs to know its place. It serves the user. It should obey.
Windows wakes up from hibernate? How tf is that happening? Also how tf it knows when to update when its hibernated/sleeping?
Better always keep a gun next to your bed if you use Windows.
Good thing i don’t
CPU interrupts. There are timer interrupts that can be used for this. In hibernate, only a tiny fraction of the CPU is changing the transistor states. A transistor only uses power when it changes state; i.e. “off” or Hibernate. Transistor state changes when you cycle the clock on a CPU. Anyways, set the register for the timer interrupt and signal the CPU for Hibernate. The timer circuit is still listening to the clock while the rest of the CPU stops listening to the clock. Each clock cycle you subtract one from the register. When the register reaches zero, the timer interrupt wakes the rest of the CPU. Just like moving your mouse or pressing the power button; they signal an interrupt which wakes the CPU.
There is a thing called wake timers on Windows. There is also Wake-on-LAN but not sure if that’s enabled on default or not.
So they don’t wake when new update arrives but only for prescheduled previously downloaded update?
Yeah, update arriving part is not necessary but it wakes the PC up, checks for updates and install them if there are any, does this every night. And if you disabled auto-sleep it just stays like that until you interfere.
Shit its wake to check for updates🤦♂ So it happens even if there is no update… Thats so fucked up
from what i understood it wakes up randomly to check for updates, then goes back to sleep. or maybe it just stays on? im not sure
You can update arch from any point of time to the current, it just takes a bit of time. Just use arch archove and update by month or two.
ACPI enabled BIOSes and UEFI support wake timers.
Windows uses this feature to wake the PC all spooky like so you don’t get to click the update button yourself.
While Windows doesn’t have an Arch wiki, the instructions for turning the automatic wake feature off are a web search away. You’ll need another web search to disable automatic updates though.
i didnt know arch did that. never happened to me, though i guess that’s because i update it like once every month or every two months, sometimes every day (depends on how long i can forget about updates existing)
The GPG keys that are used to sign packages expire and are rotated something like every six months to a year. If you don’t get the new ones in an update before they start being used, pacman will refuse to update at all.
It’s easily fixable, but if you don’t know that, it can be quite intimidating.
oh that makes sense, thx for explaining :D
Did anyone else ever notice that Windows’s enshittification really took off around the same time they renamed “My PC” to “This PC” ?
Always seemed like it was a subtle indicator they no longer considered it your personal computer but rather one they so graciously allow you to use once in a while.
Sus timing, though it’s certainly just branding.
The whole “My-” prefix for “My Documents” and “My Computer” and all that is something that was around since the 90s, and really served to emphasise the “Personal” in “Personal Computer” at a time when PCs were coming into the home for the first time.
Nowadays that branding is really unnecessary and feels pretty antiquated too, especially in an era where most stuff for most people is online, and the emphasis is more on connected seamless stuff rather than a cute little folder to put your things in.
Our computer.
Their computer. You’re just a user.
You should factor in that nowadays it is fairly normal for a single person to have multiple computers, so “My PC” is not specific enough anymore.
Linux users when their computer won’t boot because they fucked up their grub config again: (Totally not me)
Are you distro hopping? That’s when my grub would fail on me on a monthly basis.
Or just installed few months of missing updates, looking at you my broken Manjaro dual-boot
Just don’t use a rolling distro.
Tumbleweed will update six months of packages or more without breaking a sweat. It’s all about using something sturdy.
A lot of systems use systemd boot. Also, why would you be modifying Grub?
They’re trolling and have no idea what the fuck they’re talking about. I’ve literally not had a bootloader failure in a decade from multiple Linux OS installs.
The only time I had an issue was when I was playing with a bleeding edge distro and it borked full disk encryption, but that was INTENTIONALLY bleeding edge and I knew the risks.
Nah I was doing some virtualization troubleshooting and had to make some changes to grub. Luckily I had backups, but as a serial tinkerer I break stuff pretty often. Also fucked up my fstab when trying to automount drives, though that was an easy fix. I never claimed to be a clever man
I’m always so amused when people are like “Uhm, actually, when you shutdown your PC it’s not turned off, it’s sleeping so it ca…” - Bro, no. sudo poweroff. It’s off. Completely off. In fact, it would be hella annoying and fucking useless to configure sleeping.
Suspend on Linux just works as well. The PC will sleep until the user wakes it up.
Depends on which suspend tho. iirc there’s one system that’s forcefully being discontinued by big corpo, while the replacement is still very buggy everywhere.
Hmm, do you remember which one was it? Personally I never had problems with
systemctl suspendorloginctl suspend.Found it. AW article
It’s called S0ix/Modern Standby/s2idle. It was designed to replace S3, but not only is it shit on Winshit and kekOS, it’s also very unreliable on Linux in my experience. The true issue it that manufacturers started to discontinue S3 (so shallow/standby and deep/s2ram) in favor of s2idle. You can check which actions are theoretically possible in the kernel docs, and check which are supported on your system (and enabled) by cat-ing /sys/power/mem_sleep. That’s what systemctl suspend chooses. My PC and Server still have deep, but my Laptop already only has s2idle.
Thanks for the Arch Wiki article, really informative! It seems I have both s2idle and deep.
“My PC” was even replaced with “this PC” since Windows 11, which feels almost too symbolic…
My ex had one of them RGB everything rainbow gamer PCs.
Windows would auto boot to update in the middle of the night and turn the whole apartment into a rave…
damn, that sucks
also because that’s the only thing about that ex i know, the only conclusion i can make is that you stopped dating because of random middle of the night RGB raves
Just flip the switch on the back of the power supply after shutting down the computer or turn off the UPS.
To be fair, Linux has not been especially awesome at suspended/hibernate/resume, historically.
Yea, I like to suspend my machine, but rather than hit suspend and walk away I have to wait to find out what has prevented suspend from suspending. That and it trying to goto sleep when I don’t want it to. Drives me nuts
My linux PC used to be unable to hibernate/sleep at all, and my current laptop occasionally gets some kind of backlight burn-in from sleeping when the lid’s closed
Windows does not wake up from “hibernation” to do “updates”. What it really does is sleep walk during S0 sleep (aka Modern Standby) to check for updates, slowly draining your battery. Classic hibernation is not available while S0 sleep is supported by the BIOS.
Mac is also guilty of this.
What it really does is sleep walk during S0 sleep (aka Modern Standby) to check for updates, slowly draining your battery
More importantly, telling Windows to shut down doesn’t really shut it down, it puts it to sleep.
So just uncheck the Fast Startup option and it does not do that anymore.
I’m bottom even when I used windows because I turn it the hell off when I’m not using my computer.
Yes. Same with my TV and everything.
isn’t the joke in the bottom that the pc and you are both sleeping tho
Nope. My Linux Mint randomly wakes up from sleep mode all the time. It’s just a bug. Tried to fix it, never found solution. I guess I am fine with it. Well. Not really. Help me if you can!!11!!
My first guess world be unplug your mouse and keyboard and see if it still happens. Your mouse or keyboard could be sending phantom inputs sometimes. If it’s a laptop maybe not though or you’d have to test it another way at least. But it’s the first thing I’d do.
Apparently you can see which devices can wake your PC with
cat /proc/acpi/wakeup. S3 should be sleep and S4 hibernation. Though I have no idea which device is which.Lspci and lsusb will help you match up with the list
Thank you guys! Lemmy is great!
Put chrome on it, that should fix it
Why is this true 😭
fun story, i almost went crazy for troubleshooting why my desktop (mint cinnamon) often wouldn’t autosuspend or even turn off the monitor.
after a good half a year it turned out to be three different issues. autosuspend and monitor were two separate issues in cinnamon that i found a workaround for, and i also found out from the log that something wakes it up every now and then. at first i thought my cats stomp on the keyboard, but they avoid touching it. what actually happens is that when my other cat hops off my chair, static electricity wakes the pc up…
that is crazy what
this meme is especially true for students and the likes 😂 whenever you share a one-room flat with a laptop made by clueless techbros for clueless techbros, the increased fan whirring really shines.
🤭and sometimes, if you wake your linux things go to shit and all you see is black screen and white mouse on it
Sometimes super+ctrl+alt+F8 saves me and I can restart PC from TTY, and sometimes, there is only a flashing cursor. In second case, I have to take hard measures and forcefully manually restart it
(Yes nvidia card with latest proprietary driver and kde on wayland) -> everything latest meaning from endeavour/arch/aur repos.
Not every Nvidia but always Nvidia.
Maybe it is kinda a bias since nvidia is easy to blame and is existing in most PCs 🤔
All my hybernation issues went away after i switched to an AMD GPU. Not evidence in itself, just an experience an opinion.
I like how you corrected opinion to experience 😃👌🏻
And yes, I would call that an evidence, not a proof but clearly an evidence, especially if you did not change anything else (hardware or start from scratch setting up Linux distribution).
AMD had a problems with hibernation, too. amdgpu driver sometimes crashed on waking up. Problems disappeared about a year ago.
Well i switched somewhat around that time. Guess i was lucky.
