• floquant@lemmy.dbzer0.com
    21·
    12 hours ago

    Systemd is fine.

    Journald is fine.

    But someone pass me a mace I can beat systemd-resolved and systemd-logind to death with

    EDIT: Oh come on

  • CannedYeet@lemmy.world
    32·
    2 days ago

    I just like being able to use things I learn across Ubuntu, Debian, Arch and RHEL.

    Also prefixing a command with systemd-cat and having the logs go to the journal is pretty nice. Then I don’t have to worry about rotating them.

    • Wildmimic@anarchist.nexusEnglish
      40·
      2 days ago

      I fully agree. I am a user with a bit of technical background, but not a lot of detailled knowledge about the inner workings of an operating system (i know boolean logic and basic programming structures - in Pascal lol - from the 90’s, what a transistor does and stuff, how to build my own PCs and handle filesystems and troubleshooting).

      With init scripts, i hit a wall pretty fast.

      With Systemd i know how to start, stop and configure services, and the suite built around it uses the same conventions everywhere, making the everyday life with Linux for someone like me so much easier and more transparent than ever before.

    • michaelmrose@lemmy.worldEnglish
      71·
      2 days ago

      Have you considered that just “reaping old process IDs” wasn’t enough responsibility for an init daemon on a secure, robust system? That maybe it should be protecting other parts of the system and tracking the liveness of a desired service?

      What is the benefit of specifically doing that in init?

      If I see an argument like this then I can only assume the interlocutor doesn’t do software engineering.

      Its more likely that the user simply has simple needs like running stuff at startup which any init system can do and doesn’t see as much benefits as poster.

      Also who loves systemd-resolved?

      • azertyfun@sh.itjust.works
        11·
        1 day ago

        Being able to assign a nameserver per interface with a domain wildcard is a fucking godsend. I use it every day with a hook script because my job uses some private domains but I don’t want to send my entire DNS history through the VPN. Now ~job.com goes to tun0 and that’s the end of it.

        systemd-resolved is not perfect but with libnss’s overly rigid nature the only alternative for my use-case would be to recreate similar functionality to resolved with dnsmasq – which is just objectively worse especially when you want to use DHCP sometimes but not always. Why reinvent the wheel? resolved does its job and does it well. I had some issues with it a few years ago but have been using it for the past couple years without complaint.

      • anyhow2503@lemmy.world
        111·
        2 days ago

        What is the benefit of specifically doing that in init?

        What’s the alternative?

        Also who loves systemd-resolved?

        I don’t think I will ever love anything DNS-related, but it’s still the best solution I’ve used for name resolution on a system with many interfaces.

      • Cenzorrll@lemmy.world
        3·
        2 days ago

        I just had an issue with the vscodium flatpak, been using it for two months with no issue in an online course, got to learning GUIs, import module, doesn’t exist. I couldn’t figure out why it wasn’t there, installed three different python versions of it three different ways, still nothing. Couldn’t even get vscodium to point to a different interpreter that I knew was there (yet it doesn’t say it’s not there, just that some things won’t work). Still nothing. Three hours later, after trying everything I could think of, I realized that it was because I installed the flatpak version when it clicked that it worked in Geany and I didn’t have python 3.13 in my repos, yet that was the only one I could see in vscodium.

      • Rooty@lemmy.world
        18·
        2 days ago

        I still remember the bad old days of stale repositories and compiling from scratch. Never again.

        • corsicanguppy@lemmy.caEnglish
          11·
          2 days ago

          There was 25 years between c;m;mi and lennart’s cancer, filled with excellent choices better than either.

  • JackbyDev@programming.devEnglish
    391·
    2 days ago

    I don’t get the systemd hate. The most common complaint I see is that it’s too bloated, but Arch uses it, so what gives? Is it just that people dislike change? Like Wayland hate (not Wayland frustration)?

    • PiraHxCx@lemmy.mlEnglish
      173·
      12 hours ago

      From what I heard, people hate systemd because Linus Torvald was approached by the NSA to create a backdoor on Linux, he said it wouldn’t be possible to change the kernel because there were too many eyes on it, there was a mysterious hack of kernel.org introduced a mysterious code but it was spotted and removed… well, what was the only other thing common to all Linux? The sysv-init, but it was too small, too tight, too specific for them to create a backdoor there, they needed something big, bloated, doing way more than it should do, like it was just supposed to start the system but it can also do unrelated stuff like handling DNS, and an American company shows up bringing systemd, that solved all the problems the NSA had to create a backdoor on Linux, and all distros jumped into the honeypot :)

    • jj4211@lemmy.world
      14·
      2 days ago

      Generally I see a few:

      • People wanting the highly deterministic, but slower behavior of the rc scripts.
      • People liking the fact that the rc startup was generally almost entirely defined in plain script files
      • Some folks criticizing certain opinionated things in systemd, as systemd delves deeper into things like capabilities and users.
      • Systemd can sometimes be a bit weird about how it does/does not capture stdout/stderr as one might guess in some situations.
      • Some folks not liking the journald angle of binary-only files

      Mainly the last point is the only one I personally find potentially aggravating, but since I never really am in a broken system without journalctl I’m not too bothered by it. I have saved myself some effort thanks to systemd including stuff that the daemons used to provide for themselves.

      • tetris11@feddit.ukEnglish
        14·
        2 days ago

        People wanting the highly deterministic, but slower behavior of the rc scripts.

        This is literally it for me. I got to work on an alpine system and it was like a breath of fresh air - I could edit the service script files directly. So easy, so little abstraction

    • mittorn@masturbated.one
      1·
      2 days ago

      @JackbyDev @nutbutter
      People dislike unwanted change. Imagine, you are using some distro for years, and after some update everything changes and you cannot configure system usual way. Many software is changing behaviour You need read tons of docs to change something or worse, while your system hang at boot.
      My first try using systemd ended in kernel hang after too much systemd’s dmesg flooding (that was slow arm board, so it’s unlikely someone might help me with debugging it)
      But yes, many people just hate systemd because it was forced change, not even because it’s too complex

      • Ferk@programming.dev
        2·
        21 hours ago

        I’d argue that the systemd trend actually is the one that’s change-adverse.

        I remember that before systemd there was a lot of innovation when it comes to init systems… the flexibility of the script-based inits made it so most distros had their own spin. And there was more diversity in components that now are part of systemd. I’d argue that ever since systemd became the de-facto standard, innovation in those areas has become niche. Distros are becoming more homogeneous and less open to changes in that sense. Some components are becoming more and more interdependent and it’s becoming harder to ship, for example, Gnome, without systemd.

    • The Stoned Hacker@lemmy.world
      173·
      2 days ago

      So people hate on systemd because they interpret it as an init system thats gone too far and has thus violated the unix principle. in reality systemd is an entire suite of tools based around a very feature rich and robust service management suite that also includes an init system. there is something to be said about the Linux ecosystem’s reliance on systemd, but there are no comparable tools. this is why Arch uses systemd. if you dont want to use systemd, you can use distros like Arco Linux; however currently Gnome no longer works on Arco

      • Verat@sh.itjust.works
        13·
        2 days ago

        Part of the problem with it is that it is very difficult not to use it, for instance if your code uses dbus, that makes systemd a dependency and almost all of the tools are like this. Want to use alternate software with systemd init? A-OK! want to use systemd tools without systemd init? Too bad! This inter-dependence is what I think makes it break the unix philosophy, its components dont like to be replaced or used outside of the “intended” environment of systemd init, keeping it from being replaced without breakage on lot of systems.

        On my install for instance, systemd is roped in by xdg-user-dirs (and hence steam), flatpak, fcitx5, and cups. And that is just a few. So the init system isnt a problem to me, the lack of drop-in replacements for its suite of tools is.

        • The Stoned Hacker@lemmy.world
          9·
          2 days ago

          I think the biggest problem is that developing each other underlying subsystems without the rest is a hassle. As such no one has come up with a non-systemd dbus replacement. But there is a lot that can be replaced. There are some systemd services i just turn off immediately woth new installs and use something else because they’re such dogshit (looking at you resolved).

          god i fucking hate systemd-resolved

          • lightsblinken@lemmy.world
            5·
            1 day ago

            +1 on systemd-resolved. dumpster fire of horribleness. i dont mind 99% of systemd subsystems, but this one tips me over the edge, hard.

            • The Stoned Hacker@lemmy.world
              5·
              1 day ago

              it pisses me off so much. what do you mean theres no way to set the priority of nameservers or to force them to be resolved in a specific order? no i don’t want a public nameserver thats only there as backup to take precedence over my local nameserver thats necessary for kerberos to work!

        • The Stoned Hacker@lemmy.world
          3·
          2 days ago

          if sysv init or open rc are ed and sed, then systemd is Visual Studio or Pycharm; they have some functionality that overlaps but they scopes of what they do are completely different

  • krooklochurm@lemmy.ca
    251·
    2 days ago

    Listen, we’ve all done it.

    We all have bash or fish or zsh aliases to do it in command.

    We all love the feeling of a pulsing phone in our asses.

    But we don’t talk about it.