Hi everyone, I use Linux on all my machines since a decade. Unfortunately my laptops are getting older and I will probably have to change them soon. Which Laptops would you recommend me to buy in 2025 a part Librem?
I don’t have a high budget but I’m still looking for something relatively recent. I looked on H-node but it seems that there are not a lot of recent things.
I use Debian as a distro.
DELL Latitude laptops. They’re designed for work, come with repair guides from DELL, and have upgradeability. The 5310 is one of the longest-lasting laptops for battery life you can get for $200-300 on ebay (over 8 hours battery video streaming, I’ve done this) that still has half decent specs (16-64GB RAM upgradeable, upgradeable m.2 wifi / bt adapter, NVMe SSD upgradeable, i5 10th gen)
Runs fine on Debian Stable
Just to second that, the model series is Latitude, not Inspiron. and yeah, the i5 processor options I got over the years beat the i7 on processing power. The Precision models are a step up, but not any kind of low cost and seem not quite as tough.
I have a dell xps from a few years around and wouldn’t recommend it to my enemies. Just this week it froze and crashed 3 times. Obviously all related to the stupid nvidia and hybrid graphics it has… so maybe if you can get one without that shitty piece of hardware maybe it’s fine.
Latitude is my rec, not XPS. IDK why the XPS always seems to have issues.
As for “stupid hybrid graphics”, my HP Gaming 15 is a few years old now and still kicking… AMD/nVidia GTX dual graphics. Only reason I had to replace a board was because the heatsink wasn’t attached properly from the factory.
And yes, it is a linux laptop too.
I’m hearing good things about Framework, provided you get the hinge upgrade.
If you need something beefier, personally I’m using a Lenovo Legion 7 (2024 version… that white one, bought it a few months ago), and I’m loving it. Linux Mint worked out of the box, but I chose to replace the stock wifi driver with a better one.
What’s the deal with the hinge upgrade?
I had one of the initial batches and the hinge was too weak. They came out with stronger ones that are much better which I now have. It was cheap and easy to replace
Do they just use the good ones in new models now?
Yes
I have no first hand experience, but I read about it here recently:
https://www.projectgus.com/2024/09/18-months-with-framework-laptop/He has another post named “20 months…etc”, where he has done something tweaks and upgrades, and it’s all good.
You said not a high budget, and yet everyone here is saying Framework even though the they are $900 to $1,000 at the low end. To me that is not budget.
Pine64 is affordable but maybe too slow to be a daily driver, unless you feel confident finding your way through ultralightweight software and the command line and can do most of your problem solving that way.
For other pre-built options, there’s Starlabs and System76 but those are similarly priced to Librem and Framework.
Beyond that I might just research Windows laptops that are agreeable to being formatted.
Whats your use case?
Was somewhat recently considering a linux laptop myself and ended up deciding the steamdeck fit my needs well.
A dock + portable keyboard & mouse for when i need to do typing or w/e, and a fun handheld console for when i want fun.
That being said, depending on what your “older” laptop is, it might not actually be much stronger, or it might be wildly overpowered for what you need.
My top pick for a Linux laptop would be the Dell XPS 13 9310. It’s old I guess, from 2020. But the build quality and Linux support is excellent. You could get a used one from eBay for around 400USD.
Alternatively, maybe you could look for a used Thinkpad X1 Carbon. I’ve purchased several of those in the past and have had really good experiences with them. The hardware is great and the software support is excellent.
I would avoid Framework. I actually just switched back to the Dell XPS 13 9310 after a year of using the Framework. Linux support on the Framework is just not as good as some other laptops. The biggest con of Framework is the HiDPI display. You will never get the display to look good. You’ll have to do a ton of tweaking and debugging—and you’ll still have some apps that are blurry or have weirdly sized icons or text. See: https://lemmy.today/post/22761155/13770242
I haven’t used the XPS 13 personally but my experience and all my friends’ experience with the XPS lineup is that despite their build quality, they’re quite prone to failure. On my 15, the keyboard failed multiple times, as well as one of the fans and eventually one thunderbolt port, all within a span of 4 years.
They’re beautiful machines that really should be quality, but in practice for some reason they haven’t lasted for me. On the plus side though, Dell does at least offer service manuals, and lots of parts can be replaced by a user (on the 15 you can easily replace fans, RAM, SSDs, and with some work you can replace the top deck, display, and SD reader).
https://kfocus.org/spec/spec-ir16.html this is an absolute gem, built just for linux. It comes with KUbuntu preinstalled but can be wiped and replaced with any flavor of linux, and all of the hardware and laptop functionality is fully supported by linux.
Framework is way overhyped and even more overpriced. Its “upgradeability” is totally unrealistic at best, scam at worst. Sure you can pop in a new USB port or display output, but that’s about it before you’re replacing the entire guts to upgrade it and keeping just the worn out case and screen…? Gee sounds great… Repairability is a real point for framework though. Can you still not update the BIOS on linux? Its linux support is historically not great but may have improved
You’re worried about the screen being worn out? How does a screen wear out (excluding maybe oled burn in, but this aint oled). And a good chassis shouldn’t show that much wear after a few years.
If the laptop is old enough to merit CPU upgrade, then its likely already experienced plenty of wear and tear. Also I never said anything about the screen wearing out, I specifically said the case. I gave credit that at least the screen would carry over
in a few years
You’d think the point of repair and upgrade would be for the laptop to exist and be used for more than just a “few years” (otherwise what is the point?) so consider the realistic and more likely case of upgrading it more than a few years from now. Its worth it to keep an old used case, especially when you are paying a premium for framework?
It’s great that it can be repaired easily though and there are internal parts available for purchase, but you can also find internal parts to many laptops available if you look for them, the only real difference is ease of repair
I considered buying framework for my laptop but once I thought about it realistically, it stopped making much sense.
What “merits” needing a CPU upgrade? I upgraded from a core i9 11950h to a 13900h machine because I needed more performance. That 11th gen machine still looks pristine besides one spot where a cat bit the corner of the lid. Even my piddling around machine wasn’t up to snuff and upgraded from a 10th gen i5 to a 12th gen system. That machine’s keyboard was a bit worn when I first got it, but it’s not (appreciably) worse now. Besides that and maybe the palm rest the chassis is in pretty good condition. Why does it matter if the keycaps are a little smooth? Or there’s a small scuff on one corner. Or a cat punctured the bezel of the display and somehow didn’t break anything.
Either you’re holding onto the case for many many years continuously upgrading, which I question why an old case is so valuable to not just replace it too when you replace the entire mainboard, or you’re not, which makes me question the entire “upgradeable” concept.
Either way it doesn’t really make sense. You can easily upgrade the parts that don’t require a whole new mainboard, already, on literally any other laptop (hard drives, RAM, network card, battery).
It’s neat that you can customize the ports on it and swap them out, which is the only real difference from any other laptop, but to me it seems like a gimmick and doesn’t justify framework premium price when there are plenty of laptops out there with the ports that I need already
Also upgrading CPUs that are so close in generation and only a marginal performance difference like you have done is atypical and does not reflect the purchasing behavior of 99% of users. There’s no real perceivable performance difference between those two CPUs for what most people actually use a laptop to do: web browse.
replacing the entire guts
That’s not how it works at all though… What? The RAM and SSD are individually replaceable, and the screen, speaker system, and chassis all have individual upgrades that have been released with time too (for the 13, at least). The only “replacing the entire guts” you would do is if you replaced the mainboard for a CPU upgrade, and even then that’s just the mainboard, not the RAM, SSD, etc., which is pretty on-par with, say, a desktop anyway as often a meaningful CPU upgrade will include switching to a newer platform and therefore a new motherboard.
Not saying the Framework has no issues at all whatsoever, but that’s sure not one of them.
So… all the normal stuff that is normally upgradeable on a normal laptop is upgradeable for framework too? Good point…
The only “replacing the entire guts” you would do is if you replaced the mainboard for a CPU upgrade
That’s exactly my point, yes. Again, the “upgradeability” of a framework laptop is unrealistic at best and a scam at worst. It’s exactly as upgradeable as most laptops unless you’re replacing the whole mainboard which is not very realistic. By that point there is likely enough wear and tear that it makes no sense to keep the case, keyboard, and screen… and with framework premium prices you aren’t saving money on the SSD or RAM (which, no, you likely can’t reuse on a CPU upgrade, most likely you’ll be going DDR4->DDR5). I do give them credit for repairability, which is great, but “upgradeability” specifically is basically a marketing scam and will not make any sense for 99% of users.
I expected the downvotes on my comment because my opinion goes against the framework fanboys, but I hope my suggestion of KFocus IR16 is not discounted because of my opinions on framework. It is truly a great choice for linux compatibility
so all the normal stuff that’s normally upgradable
That’s just the thing, though. Soldered RAM and even drives is becoming more and more common these days, especially in the Apple space. But, the main thing here is user replaceable. I don’t know when you last swapped the RAM on a laptop, but on most consumer laptops these days it is a nightmare. With Framework, it’s 5 screws (the driver for which is included in the box, but also just standard torx) and you’re in, and they have a QR code to a guide on how to do the replacement for first timers. I know it can be hard to take if you’re used to pulling apart computers for fun, I come from there too, but the easy user upgradeability is seriously, literally, actually a great selling point on the Framework.
Also, the case, screen, trackpad, etc that get all the wear and tear are just as easily replaced if that’s your hang up.
especially in the Apple space
Offtopic, we are discussing linux laptops.
With Framework its 5 screws
Aw gee, then Framework wins! With Focus IR16 its nine phillips screws… 😩
Try Framework.
You’ll get a laptop sized to your budget and you’ll be able to grow with it, upgrade any part your budget will allow in the future.
Their linux support is excellent.
Yes, Framework!
It’s great, works perfectly, and you support something (principals, ways) worth supporting!
Something what won’t lead to/support further enshitification of all the things.
(And we might even get usable RISC–V laptops fairly soon - to even further ditch megacorps.)Framework laptops are not great actually. They basically are offloading their qa/qc onto customers. They routinely ship defective units new out of the box and try to make you do all their engineering work for them.
The quality of the components is meh at best. If I were doing it again, I would go the ThinkPad route.
Framework is a bunch of VC funded shills who see the right to repair movement as a resource they can exploit.
not to be a downer but you could very likely buy a higher performing laptop than even the top framework laptop for less money than even a minimal build
Yes, but that’s not the point of framework
Framework is a great concept, a great idea for places technology could go, but even its newest offerings are janky. I’ve seen the reviews from people who want to love them. I too want to love them. The modular tech they’re built around is cool as hell but in terms of daily use laptop that moves with you day in day out, it just ain’t it, imho.
Ive run Linux on multiple think pads, a razer laptop, and an asus gaming laptop, and they all work fine. Buy the hardware that works for you, and put Linux on it. It’s that simple.
I daily drive my framework 13 since the first batch, upgraded twice the mobo. I run it on arch Linux, 0 issue whatsoever even after a year bringing it on site like the Texan boonies or on boats in the middle of the golf of Mexico … Compatibility wise with linux, 100% of the peripherals work, even the finger reader thing.
I don’t want to denigrate people that it works for, because I know the people that love them love them.
Has the battery life (more specifically drain while in suspend) gotten better? I’ve heard horror stories on that, port availability (pretty limited ports because each port attachment takes up so much space) and some complaints about build quality and durability.
Just converted their Chromebook over to an AMD system running Fedora. Battery life is what you make it. If you run the processor on performance with the screen brightness high, yeah, it can go quickly. But I can also get a full work day out of it no problem, you just have to keep things in perspective. Plus, you can literally swap to a bigger battery. What other laptop can do that?
Build quality is the same as any other Linux laptop; that is to say, it doesn’t use the fanciest metals; the aluminum is cheap, but so is System76’s metal, which is what it is when you’re keeping costs down for customized laptops. Don’t drop your laptop; you’ll be fine.
Ports are a little limited, but nothing out of the norm for smaller laptops either. You do have the option to swap ports at any time, so there is plenty of versatility you can literally carry with you. Hell, don’t MacBooks only have two ports? Things could be much worse.
The truth is, there is no perfect Linux laptop. Either the Framework appeals, or it doesn’t. Trust that the same way you’re nitpicking Framework could be done to any brand. Find the one you like, and go with it. For some of us, that’s Framework, as it gets closer to our ideal than any other, which is kinda what using Linux is all about: fulfilling our personal ideals.
It’s definitely not jank. Huge fan of mine as well as some other folks here. Fw13 with AMD.
Love mine and daily drive it. Not janky, zero issues. Everything works on Linux. Not sure what you’re referring to.
Can you get more bang for your buck? Yes, to start. But let’s compare after a couple of upgrades on mine vs whole laptop replacements with other brands.
Yes but in the future when you need or want to upgrade again, it’s a fairly trivial cost because you’re reusing 90% of the parts. It’s an investment.
Not to mention if there’s any kind of mechanical issue in the future.
reusing 90% of the parts
Oops you need a whole new mainboard anyway to upgrade the CPU… oops you need new DDR5 RAM for the new CPU… oops these framework parts cost a premium at about the same cost as a new laptop anyay. Congrats, you now have an upgraded laptop in an old case that’s already gone through wear and tear… at least you kept the SSD that could have been popped into a new laptop as a secondary drive?
Oops you need a whole new mainboard anyway to upgrade the CPU
Yes that would be the 10% I was referring to.
oops you need new DDR5 RAM for the new CPU
…and the other new computer you want to buy doesn’t?
oops these framework parts cost a premium
You pay a little more for the 10% of new parts but it’s easily accounted for in the other 90%.
Congrats, you now have…an old case that’s already gone through wear and tear…
…so? You saved buckets of money in the process…
That’s cool. Performance per dollar isn’t the only factor for a laptop.
Size
Weight
Durability
Battery life
I/O and other features.
A not dogshit network card
An actually usuable trackpad
I’m sure I could list more. But those are all things that are important on a laptop and you can’t change after you buy it.
Used ThinkPad’s are pretty common on Ebay.
They’re what I use. Also with Debian.
“Recent” is a factor of how much you’re willing to shell out.
$300.00USD will get you a good Debian compatible box. You may want to then replace the battery and/or add RAM. Those are both found inexpensively also.
I second used or new Thinkpads. They have good linux support. I use a p14s with arch (btw).
New thinkpads are trash unfortunately. Lenovo really cheaped out on their build quality. I’ve had to fix multiple lenovo laptops and one of their all-in-ones and the corners they cut made the repairs either impossible or extremely difficult.
One new ideapad had to go back to them twice with motherboard issues.
Replacing the keyboard is impossible, you need to replace the whole front panel of the case becuase the keyboard is plastic rivited in place.
The all-in-one started as a simple ram and storage upgrade, but in order to do that the whole back panel needs to come off. Its snapped on but the LCD panel itself doesn’t have any subframe around it, so when opening the back panel theres a very high chance of you cracking the display.
They’re still far better than everything else on the market.
IdeaPads also aren’t ThinkPads. Those are the consumer grade garbage you’d want to stay away from.
Yup, “Thinkpad” not the other Think… or …pad. The consumer targeted stuff is bad, even the Lenovo sales rep I got my P14s told me so.
I’m loving my Framework, have Mint on there. Thinkpads are also well regarded I believe
Yeah but new ThinkPads comes with soldered RAMs. Even mostly all brands do the same. I think framework don’t do it
Framework hasn’t done that yet. They have an event in 3 days and a lot of people seem to be thirsting for a Strix Halo main board, though.
Whether a Thinkpad has soldered RAM or not is model-by-model thing. When I was laptop shopping I tried to stick to the only non-soldered ones, but they are definitely more expensive, as they are the higher-end models. I absolutely cannot wait for CAMM to, if it ever does, become a normal thing for RAM modules.
Open source hardware
This is the route I’ll probably go when it’s time for me to replace my laptop. The 14" Lemur Pro looks perfect for my use case (ultra portable) although the Pangolin looks more powerful.
I unfortunately had disabling experiences with the System76 Pangolin (12). Since then I would absolutely not recommend System76.
I had a galago pro and it was not well built. It fell apart faster than any other laptop I’ve used.
I don’t like that their 14" model only comes with intel CPUs
Go to an electronics recycling center and get a retired thinkpad (or 5). Once they’re decommissioned by corporations, they wipe the drive and send them off to be recycled.
They’re a bit expensive up front, but I’m really enjoying my Framework.
I personally buy refurbished. Lately I got a Lenovo X280 thinkpad, for $160 with 8 GB of RAM, 1080p screen. Worked fine, Linux flies on it.
I bought a Framework laptop then threw Pop OS on it. I have no issues. They sell refurbished devices and they are modular so you can swap out whatever is giving you issues.
Have you gotten any of the mystery boxes from them?
From experience, I recommend Tuxedo laptops. They’re really good and come with full Linux support.
